Recent issues surrounding ISIS brides, IDF returnees and Gaza activists in the global flotilla exemplify our government’s erosion of its responsibilities to Australians.
Realpolitik yes, but the situation is worse than that.
What happened to the Middle Powers getting together and making a stand?
I go back to the Spain example. It has been loud to condemn plus not collude in the mess churned up by Israel/US re Iran. PM Sanchez made a very publicised public statement very soon after Saif Abu Keshek (Palestinian who also has Spanish/Swedish citizenship) and Thiago Ávila (Brasilian), organisers of the Sumud Flotilla, were illegally taken to Israel for ‘special treatment’. He said that no Spanish citizen imprisoned illegally would be left at the mercy of Israel. (If you want the original statement I’ll look for it). Thereafter, Spanish newspapers were reporting day by day what was happening to the two hostages. There was additional international pressure and after ten days they were released. That is what self-respecting leaders should be doing when citizens of their countries are apprehended illegally in international waters and bashed - to at least say that it is not acceptable.
Our govt was first cab off the rank to approve the illegal bombing of Iran by US/Israel. It is complicit in approving the breach of international law. This is very serious. If the govt hasn’t got the courage to say no to these breaches will it be able to say no when, very likely, we are asked once more by the US to join in the war, seeing as the war is heating up again? I hope it does find some courage. Australia has lost far too many young men over the years to other nations’ wars.
With the global sumud flotilla, much like Shoebridge’s thoughts they’re based on a feeling from the outside. Nobody knows what the Australian Gov said to Israel behind closed doors on those Australians taken from the flotilla. Its often said that you can do more damage in international relations the louder you are.
Spain is a poor example to keep bringing up. We’re fundamentally different, they’re at the tip of one of the strongest continents, who all share highly similar values abd political traditions to them.
Australia sits alone below a region that knows domination from a major northern power (China) and has far more subtle means of living alongside that power. Those southeast asian mechanisms don’t align well with the European tradition of speaking out. This means we are often/largely alone if we speak out too much for human rights in our own region. With the change in US stance toward the world this problem can be applied to our allies now as well.
With all this, as I said initially, i’m not sure its the right choice, if thats their methodology. What I’m saying is, its too much for Shoebridge to assume because the Australian Government doesn’t speak out like Spain, that they’re “comfortable” with the situation. He and we don’t know what is happening behind closed doors, and without evidence its lazy to conclude what he indicated in that interview, and Shoebridge didn’t present any evidence, only his opinion. Thats not worthless, but its also not everything.
If all or most European governments had such similar values, surely more would have spoken out like Spain did. Spain has one of very few left-wing governments in Europe (I think Norway might also have a left govt) with a relatively young prime minister and that is probably a major reason why they call out fascistic actions when they see them. Aside from this, although the European Union presents as a bloc, each country has a very old, rich and unique history. By no means do they have similar political traditions.
Anyway, governments are firstly responsible for the welfare of their citizens and they are meant to publicly object to their ill treatment by other jurisdictions, especially if their citizens were assaulted for no legal reasons by allies with whom we are supposed to share similar democratic values. The Israeli govt has no qualms in complaining pretty publicly about how we don’t protect Jewish people enough inside our own country and our govt is bending over backwards to accommodate and respond to those complaints, including running an expensive Royal Commission, changing laws and a whole lot of other changes. Our govt also took side with the Israeli govt and more or less said the Australians in the flotilla got what they deserved for getting involved (not as harshly put but meaning the same). This is while Palestinians continue to be killed and seriously mistreated in a supposed ceasefire.
I do think you are being a bit of an apologist for the Labor govt and I also think Shoebridge knows more about what’s happening in the govt than you and I do. ‘Comfortable’ might be an unfortunate term but it conveys being more than tolerant with the current global status quo and i don’t think that can be denied. I guess what Spain is showing is that it is possible to speak out with some moral and democratic authority and not keep quiet out of fear of trade or other reprisals.
apologist for the Labor govt and I also think Shoebridge knows more
I’ve gone to some length to give credit to Shoebridge and his better placed position to view these things in this thread. That doesn’t take away from the fact he presented only his opinion. He can have an opinion, but that isn’t the definite truth. He could be wrong in his opinion, wholly or partially, and there was no information he gave that rebuts that.
Calling me an apologist means you’ve singularly failed to notice there are often unidentified reasons for policy and decisions.
The unsealing of government records after ~50 years~ is an interesting case. In this case the public can finally match the inside of a story to the outside of that same known event a Government dealt with. This can give better public clarity to how the issue was viewed by the PM or Minister, and why and how they differed to the public narrative of the time.
firstly responsible for the welfare of their citizens…
…and they are meant to publicly object to their ill treatment by other jurisdictions
This is two statements that don’t always meet with each other for a Government. The welfare of the mass sometimes has a different need to publicly advocating. In fact publicly advocating can also be deteimental for the individuals involved. It can force the captor party into acting more aggressively. The effective method, often doesn’t suit hollywood heroics.
A recent example is the Government quietly got Julian Assange home. Making a public song and dance could’ve embarrassed the US into keeping him, possibly punishing him more. Make an example. In that case, like many others we don’t hear about, the quiet public diplomacy course was the correct one.
By no means do they have similar political traditions
I mean, this is just incorrect. Of course each have differences, but they have a shared history. South East Asia has shared history with each other, that we don’t share much of, and thus haven’t had many of those cross-cultural influences.
I do understand your viewpoint and respect it but cannot agree.
You could posit that Shoebridge said more than the ‘comfortable’ description of the current govt approach to Israel etc but that this could not be spelled out for fear by the author, Paul Gregoire, of getting into legal trouble, or, that Shoebridge himself did not want to make waves that could damage his Party. We’ll never know but speaking like this is often a sign of a system that is ‘not comfortable’ with openness.
there are often unidentified reasons for policy and decisions
Yes I know but to keep quiet with the bare-faced evidence that your citizens are being assaulted by your ally illegally, to keep quiet about the ongoing murder of Palestinians and the mass destruction of Sthn Lebanon with thousands already killed is very suspect, no matter how hush-hush the reasons might be. The UN has condemned this activity and so should everyone. These are mass crimes. And assaulting foreign nationals on international waters is also breaking the law. Silence is condoning the breakdown of the international order.
Government quietly got Julian Assange home.
We are talking of one high-profile figure and I was overjoyed when our govt finally got him out imprisonment. It saved his life. The above situation is the opposite. Whatever the ‘unidentified reasons’ for the silence and the continued support directly or indirectly of Israeli military action, it has cost at least 100,000 lives and counting. Keeping silent about that but being super public about supporting the illegal bombing of Iran which has caused thousands more deaths and will probably continue on is… what would you say?
Germans and others were castigated after WW2 for turning a blind eye or supporting what was happening to Jews and other minorities in Europe during the war but what many of us are doing now (including our own govt) looks very similar. I am sure they have ‘unidentified reasons’ but the result is still criminal and many lives are being obliterated, including
tens of thousands of innocent children. I cannot excuse putting people’s lives behind political expediency.
These aren’t my points of view. Stop putting me in the position of defending Labor. I’ve stated multiple times in different ways that my issue is I’m not willing to take Shoebridges word for it, not that I support the direction the Government has taken. Go back and read again what I’ve said. Don’t really know why you’re having trouble seeing the difference.
I don’t appreciate having the murders of tens of thousands being wiped in my face because I’m willing to question a Greens Senator as much as any other public personality.
My example of “unidentified reasons” is me trying to show you an alternative reason for a Government to act in the way they’re acting, and to demonstrate that we and Shoebridge have no information to determine Shoebridge’s reasoning is correct or not.
Realpolitik yes, but the situation is worse than that.
What happened to the Middle Powers getting together and making a stand?
I go back to the Spain example. It has been loud to condemn plus not collude in the mess churned up by Israel/US re Iran. PM Sanchez made a very publicised public statement very soon after Saif Abu Keshek (Palestinian who also has Spanish/Swedish citizenship) and Thiago Ávila (Brasilian), organisers of the Sumud Flotilla, were illegally taken to Israel for ‘special treatment’. He said that no Spanish citizen imprisoned illegally would be left at the mercy of Israel. (If you want the original statement I’ll look for it). Thereafter, Spanish newspapers were reporting day by day what was happening to the two hostages. There was additional international pressure and after ten days they were released. That is what self-respecting leaders should be doing when citizens of their countries are apprehended illegally in international waters and bashed - to at least say that it is not acceptable.
Our govt was first cab off the rank to approve the illegal bombing of Iran by US/Israel. It is complicit in approving the breach of international law. This is very serious. If the govt hasn’t got the courage to say no to these breaches will it be able to say no when, very likely, we are asked once more by the US to join in the war, seeing as the war is heating up again? I hope it does find some courage. Australia has lost far too many young men over the years to other nations’ wars.
This is the strategic problem Australia is in.
With the global sumud flotilla, much like Shoebridge’s thoughts they’re based on a feeling from the outside. Nobody knows what the Australian Gov said to Israel behind closed doors on those Australians taken from the flotilla. Its often said that you can do more damage in international relations the louder you are.
Spain is a poor example to keep bringing up. We’re fundamentally different, they’re at the tip of one of the strongest continents, who all share highly similar values abd political traditions to them.
Australia sits alone below a region that knows domination from a major northern power (China) and has far more subtle means of living alongside that power. Those southeast asian mechanisms don’t align well with the European tradition of speaking out. This means we are often/largely alone if we speak out too much for human rights in our own region. With the change in US stance toward the world this problem can be applied to our allies now as well.
With all this, as I said initially, i’m not sure its the right choice, if thats their methodology. What I’m saying is, its too much for Shoebridge to assume because the Australian Government doesn’t speak out like Spain, that they’re “comfortable” with the situation. He and we don’t know what is happening behind closed doors, and without evidence its lazy to conclude what he indicated in that interview, and Shoebridge didn’t present any evidence, only his opinion. Thats not worthless, but its also not everything.
If all or most European governments had such similar values, surely more would have spoken out like Spain did. Spain has one of very few left-wing governments in Europe (I think Norway might also have a left govt) with a relatively young prime minister and that is probably a major reason why they call out fascistic actions when they see them. Aside from this, although the European Union presents as a bloc, each country has a very old, rich and unique history. By no means do they have similar political traditions.
Anyway, governments are firstly responsible for the welfare of their citizens and they are meant to publicly object to their ill treatment by other jurisdictions, especially if their citizens were assaulted for no legal reasons by allies with whom we are supposed to share similar democratic values. The Israeli govt has no qualms in complaining pretty publicly about how we don’t protect Jewish people enough inside our own country and our govt is bending over backwards to accommodate and respond to those complaints, including running an expensive Royal Commission, changing laws and a whole lot of other changes. Our govt also took side with the Israeli govt and more or less said the Australians in the flotilla got what they deserved for getting involved (not as harshly put but meaning the same). This is while Palestinians continue to be killed and seriously mistreated in a supposed ceasefire.
I do think you are being a bit of an apologist for the Labor govt and I also think Shoebridge knows more about what’s happening in the govt than you and I do. ‘Comfortable’ might be an unfortunate term but it conveys being more than tolerant with the current global status quo and i don’t think that can be denied. I guess what Spain is showing is that it is possible to speak out with some moral and democratic authority and not keep quiet out of fear of trade or other reprisals.
I’ve gone to some length to give credit to Shoebridge and his better placed position to view these things in this thread. That doesn’t take away from the fact he presented only his opinion. He can have an opinion, but that isn’t the definite truth. He could be wrong in his opinion, wholly or partially, and there was no information he gave that rebuts that.
Calling me an apologist means you’ve singularly failed to notice there are often unidentified reasons for policy and decisions.
The unsealing of government records after ~50 years~ is an interesting case. In this case the public can finally match the inside of a story to the outside of that same known event a Government dealt with. This can give better public clarity to how the issue was viewed by the PM or Minister, and why and how they differed to the public narrative of the time.
This is two statements that don’t always meet with each other for a Government. The welfare of the mass sometimes has a different need to publicly advocating. In fact publicly advocating can also be deteimental for the individuals involved. It can force the captor party into acting more aggressively. The effective method, often doesn’t suit hollywood heroics.
A recent example is the Government quietly got Julian Assange home. Making a public song and dance could’ve embarrassed the US into keeping him, possibly punishing him more. Make an example. In that case, like many others we don’t hear about, the quiet public diplomacy course was the correct one.
I mean, this is just incorrect. Of course each have differences, but they have a shared history. South East Asia has shared history with each other, that we don’t share much of, and thus haven’t had many of those cross-cultural influences.
I do understand your viewpoint and respect it but cannot agree.
You could posit that Shoebridge said more than the ‘comfortable’ description of the current govt approach to Israel etc but that this could not be spelled out for fear by the author, Paul Gregoire, of getting into legal trouble, or, that Shoebridge himself did not want to make waves that could damage his Party. We’ll never know but speaking like this is often a sign of a system that is ‘not comfortable’ with openness.
Yes I know but to keep quiet with the bare-faced evidence that your citizens are being assaulted by your ally illegally, to keep quiet about the ongoing murder of Palestinians and the mass destruction of Sthn Lebanon with thousands already killed is very suspect, no matter how hush-hush the reasons might be. The UN has condemned this activity and so should everyone. These are mass crimes. And assaulting foreign nationals on international waters is also breaking the law. Silence is condoning the breakdown of the international order.
We are talking of one high-profile figure and I was overjoyed when our govt finally got him out imprisonment. It saved his life. The above situation is the opposite. Whatever the ‘unidentified reasons’ for the silence and the continued support directly or indirectly of Israeli military action, it has cost at least 100,000 lives and counting. Keeping silent about that but being super public about supporting the illegal bombing of Iran which has caused thousands more deaths and will probably continue on is… what would you say?
Germans and others were castigated after WW2 for turning a blind eye or supporting what was happening to Jews and other minorities in Europe during the war but what many of us are doing now (including our own govt) looks very similar. I am sure they have ‘unidentified reasons’ but the result is still criminal and many lives are being obliterated, including tens of thousands of innocent children. I cannot excuse putting people’s lives behind political expediency.
These aren’t my points of view. Stop putting me in the position of defending Labor. I’ve stated multiple times in different ways that my issue is I’m not willing to take Shoebridges word for it, not that I support the direction the Government has taken. Go back and read again what I’ve said. Don’t really know why you’re having trouble seeing the difference.
I don’t appreciate having the murders of tens of thousands being wiped in my face because I’m willing to question a Greens Senator as much as any other public personality.
My example of “unidentified reasons” is me trying to show you an alternative reason for a Government to act in the way they’re acting, and to demonstrate that we and Shoebridge have no information to determine Shoebridge’s reasoning is correct or not.
I’ll be leaving this here now.
I was responding to the points being made, not trying to disparage you personally.