the front page is now like half articles on this currently, so it’s probably time for a megathread because none of us want to keep track of 12 threads on this subject and all the resulting comments. only major subsequent developments (for example, boots on the ground; pronunciations by governments; that sort of stuff) will get their own thread. otherwise please post stuff in here for the time being. any threads not meeting this criteria will be locked and removed. thank you in advance for your cooperation.
It’s terrible that Israeli civilians were murdered.
It’s wonderful that the world is stating such, and showing its support to prevent further murder of innocents.
It’s terrible that Palestinian civilians were murdered.
It’s terrible that the world is ignoring this, and turning a blind eye to further murder of innocents.
Exactly. If you look at the big picture, Israelis have killed WAY more Palestinians over the years, as well as apartheid and stealing Palestinian land.
I’m not taking sides, but the one sided coverage gross.
taking sides is fine and even right, but that needs to come with recognition and acceptance of that side’s problems
The problem with this conflict in particular is that taking the side of Palestine has become synonymous with taking the side of Hamas, or with simply being antisemitic. It’s essential if you want to express any support for Palestine that you also painstakingly lay out exactly what you support and what you don’t, otherwise… Well, the onion said it best.
it hasnt become synonymous, certain people want to make it seem like theyre synonymous
I don’t think articulating a concern for any civilians on any side is taken poorly, and I don’t think that the majority of the media has skewed any calls for humanitarian aid and adherance to international warfare rules as anti-semitism. In fact, the new york times has published both investigative and opinion pieces that are very sympathetic to Palestinian civilians, and calling out Israeli disproportionate response.
I think part of the problem in discussing the issue is that the events of today are inextricably woven into the events of the
- 1948 founding of Israel by the UN at the end of the British mandate.
- the invasion of the five armies and the 1949 armistice.
- the six day war, and the loss of the Sinai peninsula.
- the eventual recognition of borders by Egypt and Jordan.
- the results of the shelling of Beirut after the Hezbollah attack in 2006.
But that is a lot of history, but the back and forth of tragedies, including disproportionate response is driven by these events.
When most people online seem to confuse the history of Gaza with that of the West Bank, or conflate Hamas and Hezbollah, it is no wonder that discussion breaks down.
Unfortunately I was in a debate elsewhere on the fediverse where the other person said there is no legitimate response to the Hamas attack for Israel because Israel’s existence is the source of the problem.
That sounds like the Hezbollah general who yesterday called this a “war of existence” in that either Israel exists or the Arab alliance exists. So how do you reason with that position, and how many people objecting to Israel’s use of force are really all that knowledgeable of the history?
I also think that people underestimate how you reason with allies. If Biden hadn’t shown solidarity with Israel, then his visit today wouldn’t have resulted in the opening of humanitarian aid. You influence allies by showing solidarity publicly, and having frank conversations on private.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. Have a great evening!
It doesn’t matter who killed more. That’s why this never ends. “My tragedy is worse than your tragedy” is never productive. It just serves as an (incorrect) argument for why it’s permissible for one group to keep committing atrocities while the other group has to suffer it and be the first to bury the hatchet. Then the script flips and everyone does it again from their respective positions. It never ends.
It’s terrible that some civilians immigrated to Israel for the sole purpose of becoming settlers and pushing Palestinians out.
It’s terrible that some civilians immigrated to Gaza for the sole purpose of having as big a family as possible to use their own children and grandchildren as human shields against Israeli settlers.
It’s terrible that dual-citizenship people on both sides are asking “their” [other] countries to evacuate them, after having spent decades there on purpose.
It’s terrible that Israel is willing to watch millions of civilians starve… that Egypt doesn’t want to let refugees in… and Hamas doesn’t want to let them out.
So far, I see nothing wonderful in all of this.
Can you substantiate that 2nd point? I haven’t heard it anywhere before.
Source: Spanish TV.
There has been some uproar this week because there are over 10,000 Spanish citizens in Israel and Gaza, but the government only decided to fleet 2 military planes to evacuate 500 of them. Turns out, they were only evacuating the “tourists and people on business trips”… meaning the rest are not; they’re people who decided to immigrate there. Following that, different reporters got hold of people “left behind”, both in Israel and Gaza.
One of those people, was a lady who immigrated to Gaza 40 years ago, “to settle right next to the Israeli border”, and now kept repeating how the Spanish consulate is ignoring her request for evacuating her 19-people family, with many children among them.
It’s estimated that 50% of the population of Gaza are underage, meaning they’re people born in the last 18 years, into a conflict that’s been going for 70 years, from way before this lady decided to immigrate there 40 years ago and contribute to the population growth.
Source: Internet (various)
Some statistics about this:
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Palestine demographics pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine
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Israel demographics pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
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Population of Palestinian and Israeli territories - https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/05/18/israel-still-rules-over-palestinians-50-years-after-its-six-day-war
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Percentage of Palestinians and Jews in Historical Palestine in Various Years - https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/512/default.aspx?lang=en&ItemID=3734
Both sides are engaged in a long term (100+ years) strategy of trying to out-number each other, with sympathizers of each side migrating there to increase the numbers for the conflict. Since immigration into Gaza and Palestine is more restricted than into Israel, the former have been trying to churn out as many “new residents” (aka kids) as quickly as possible… who are now being used by Hamas as a humanitarian crisis bargaining chip.
Notice how even with a steady emigration of about half the population of Palestine every year, the total population keeps growing, along with a steady immigration rate of around 200K/year:
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1990 - over 1.5M emigrants, population 2M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/1990/
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2000 - over 2M emigrants, population 3M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
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2010 - over 2.5M emigrants, population 4M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
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2013 - over 3M emigrants, population 4.2M - https://www.populationpyramid.net/migrants/en/state-of-palestine/2013/
You do realize that poorer regions have much higher fertility because of much higher child mortality rates and much lower average lifespans, right? Fertility is inversely proportional with wealth and access to healthcare.
This isn’t unique to Gaza. It’s true in Africa, India, and pre-communist China.
Notice how the sharpest decline in Palestine’s demographic pyramid appears between 14 and 34 years old, or about when people realize what’s going on and decide to GTFO, and how that fits the constantly increasing emigration, while the increasing population —despite higher child mortality, lower lifespans, and extreme emigration— fits the profile of adapting fertility to and ideological parity with Israel’s immigration rates.
Since you mentioned India:
- India’s demographic pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India
Notice the low child mortality with an actual increase towards the age of 22. We could discuss the large younger male surplus, though.
I’d recommend you take a look at the demographic pyramids of countries in Africa. Mortality is steepest in the 14-34 range because that’s when most people die.
That’s nonsense. Feel free to investigate the demographics of the World, Africa, Niger, Ukraine, China, or the US, to get a feel for “infant mortality” or “when most people die”.
- India’s demographic pyramid - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India
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‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That - The Onion posts absolutely fire satire (safire?) once again
Their Onion Explains: The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is eight years old, but I still consider it paramount to understanding this complex geopolitical conflict.
Omar and Tlaib Are Condemned in the US for Saying What Prominent Israelis Are Saying(direct)
About 1/3rd through the article, they start highlighting some of the progressive conversations that have been being had in Israel, comparing them to the remarks AOC, Bernie Sanders, Ilhan Omar, Cori Bush, Rashida Tlaib, and others have been criticized as “disgraceful” for.
Some important ones IMO:
Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator and top adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who told the BBC, “If anyone told me that what the militants did on the weekend was a legitimate response to years and years of occupation. I would say: ‘No, you’re wrong-headed. You’ve lost sight of humanity and reality.’ And if anyone tells me that what Israel is doing in Gaza today is a legitimate response to what happened on the weekend, it’s exactly the same.”
Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard, an expert on the rules of war, observed Wednesday that “Hamas committed abominable war crimes for which there can be no forgiveness. But the laws of war weren’t meant only for situations in which our blood is cool, or when there is no justified anger or understandable desire for revenge.” The lawyer explained:
It’s not easy for Israelis to think about Gazans’ rights in a week when Hamas committed crimes that are still impossible to digest and our whole society is mourning and crying. But Gaza’s catastrophe won’t wait for the end of our seven-day shivah.
Consequently, this needs to be said: Israel has held millions of people under a brutal blockade for more than 15 years with the support of the entire Western world. That is inhumane and inconceivable, and every solution to this bloody conflict ultimately includes respecting the rights of all people, both in Gaza and Sderot, to live with security and human dignity. And that begins with respecting the most basic rules as set down in the international laws of war, which are designed to reduce the harm to civilians.
It’s easy to get stuck in a North American bubble of media, but it’s also important to note what’s being said locally by people who have eyes on the ground and have been watching this stuff grow first hand for 75 years since the occupation of Israel.
It’s very telling that the media began insinuating (or labeling outright) Representatives Omar and Tlaib as being antisemitic for criticizing Israel’s response, but when Sanders says the same thing, and even more, they don’t.
If it’s not antisemitic for a Jewish person to say, it’s not antisemitic for someone else to. No one is immune from criticism that would otherwise be valid, simply because of who is giving it.
kicking things off: Israel is creating a shit ton of collateral damage. MSF says they’re being given just hours to evacuate their patients in Gaza before bombing continues:
it’s also just come out that an Israeli strike in Lebanon killed a Reuters journalist:
this is also a kind of insane detail to how bad the Israeli government has been handling the situation so far: The president of the United States has spoken with the families of Israelis whose loved ones are being held captive in Gaza. The prime minister of Israel has yet to do so. Make of it what you will.
US State Dept. Officials Told Not to Use Terms ‘De-Escalation/Cease-Fire’ About Gaza - just… big sigh.
According to HuffPost, which reviewed official emails, “State Department staff wrote that high-level officials do not want press materials to include three specific phrases: ‘de-escalation/cease-fire,’ ‘end to violence/bloodshed,’ and ‘restoring calm.’”
fyi: if you’d like a vetted cause to donate to, people are fundraising for Palestine Children’s Relief Fund which is one of the best charities i’m aware of that does relief work in Gaza and puts basically all of the money given to them toward actual work and not salaries or overhead.
do you have one for EU folks? want to donate, but donating to an actual trustworthy org is hard enough when there isnt this much misinformation
I think Medecines Sans Frontiers is good?
US State Dept. Officials Told Not to Use Terms ‘De-Escalation/Cease-Fire’ About Gaza
“This is unconscionable and will leave an indelible stain,” said one critic, who urged “resignations and collective action” to protest the reported policy.
NBC News now reporting the following: Documents exclusively obtained by NBC News show that Hamas created detailed plans to target elementary schools and a youth center in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Sa’ad, to “kill as many people as possible,” seize hostages and quickly move them into the Gaza Strip.
What a convenient find.
Corporate Media Outlets Are Obscuring Settler Colonialism in Their Gaza Coverage
It is impossible to accurately grasp the current situation without discussing the concept of settler colonialism.
Journalist Rips Palestinian ‘Terrorism’ Narrative to Shreds
Israel has been calling Palestinian fighters “terrorists” to justify its slaughter of Gaza.
Breakthrough News journalist, Eugene Puryear, rips this narrative apart, explaining the long history of oppressed and colonized people being demonized and called terrorists and savage to justify the continued occupation of those people. No different than the Native resistance to American colonization, slave rebellions in the Americas, the Haitian Revolution, Palestinians are resisting Israeli colonialism, not out of bloodlust as the media has portrayed it, but because of decades of land thefts, massacres, second-class citizenship and the denial of the right to return that has persisted for decades.
This seems to be missing the meaning of the word “terrorist”, as in anyone espousing the ideology of instilling fear as a weapon.
as in anyone espousing the ideology of instilling fear as a weapon.
I wish that was what the word “terrorist” means.
It has always meant anyone using asymmetric tactics to oppose states or capitalism, both violent and non-violent. If it simply meant using fear as a weapon, then every state that has prisons and police would be terrorist.
The standard usage of the word is so hypocritical that it has become an authoritarian allegiance-signifying pejorative without any deeper meaning.
If it simply meant using fear as a weapon, then every state that has prisons and police would be terrorist.
Well… you said it 🙈
The Oxford definition adds “unlawful” as an extra requirement, but I’d readily call Iran’s morality police “terrorist”, despite being lawful and state sponsored.
I agree Iran uses fear to control its citizens, but that’s a pretty facile statement in an English speaking community. How do you feel about Anastasija Kukhta or Mikhail Lazakovich, both convicted of terrorism?
Russia and Belarus also use fear to control their citizens. Setting a place on fire to make the state fear you, definitely can be called terrorism. Asking for sanctions against a state… hm, kind of? Technically, many of the sanctions against Russia are also intended to instill fear, including amongst civilians so they stop supporting their state. Making the EU fear whether it will have enough fuel for the winter, is another case.
There’s a lot of terrorising going around these days.
The word is useless for describing violent acts in a meaningful way. It can mean making children traumatized with bombs, or making HOA members afraid their property value will decrease with graffiti, vastly different actions and outcomes.
Tellingly, none of the people who tried to overthrow the government and caused hundreds of senators and congresspeople to retreat in fear have been charged with terrorism.
Meanwhile, people who take videos of animal abuse on farms are terrorists. Eric King is housed at the infamous prison for terrorists ADX Florence, and is referred to the counterterrorism unit for passing out Union cards.
No one who wants to be taken seriously should use the word “terrorist” in a descriptive context. It is not a meaningful word, it’s a noise people make when the word they actually mean is socially inappropriate or politically inopportune.
The word is useless for describing violent acts in a meaningful way
Agree.
It is not a meaningful word
Disagree.
“Terrorism” has a clear meaning, and observing when people use it, or avoid using it, is even more meaningful, as proven by those examples.
PS: I’ve been called a “no freeloading terrorist”, a “TV remote terrorist”, and a “cleaning terrorist”. It may not tell you much about what I did, but it should convey enough meaning about what they were thinking.
Israel Is ‘Very Sorry’ For Attack That Killed Lebanese Reuters Journalist Issam Abdallah
The Israeli army has expressed that they are “very sorry” for the death of Lebanese Reuters journalist Issam Abdallah, who was killed in an Israeli shelling at the Lebanon border.
Despite the IDF’s expression of regret, the vehicle Abdallah was in was clearly marked as a media car. The incident occurred while Abdallah and other journalists were covering ongoing clashes at the border.
Lebanon’s caretaker Prime Minister Najib Mikati condemned Israel’s actions, and UN Secretary-General António Guterres expressed condolences, emphasizing the need for journalists to be protected.
Gaza: Nowhere to go, as humanitarian crisis reaches ‘dangerous new low’ (direct)
The UN chief told reporters outside the Security Council the world had to unite around the principle of protecting civilians and “finding a lasting solution to this unending cycle of death and destruction.”
CBC | As Israel expands Gaza offensive, it has lonely critics in Washington(direct)
As Israel expands its military offensive in Gaza, some Democrats in the US are expressing growing criticism of Israeli actions. Younger progressive Democrats have been more vocal in calling for civilian protections and a ceasefire. However, support for Israel remains strong among both Democratic and Republican leadership as well as the general public. While progressive critics want to see Palestinian lives prioritized, Israel sees no viable negotiating partner with Hamas controlling Gaza. The article discusses the long history of US support for Israel since its founding and changing views over time. Some analysts believe criticism from the left lacks real political power but could influence younger voters. Ultimately both sides express pessimism about prospects for peace given the deep tensions and lack of trust between Israelis and Palestinians.
It’s evidenced in the vote in the last U.S. Congress to top up American funding for Israel’s missile-defence system: a lopsided result of 420 to 9.
I checked who voted which way, and the following were Nay votes:
- Cori Bush (D)
- André Carson (D)
- Jesús G. “Chuy” García (D)
- Raúl M. Grijalva (D)
- Thomas Massie (R)
- Marie Newman (D)
- Ilhan Omar (D)
- Ayanna Pressley (D)
- Rashida Tlaib (D)
Present:
- Henry C. “Hank” Johnson, Jr. (D)
- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D)
No Vote:
- Debbie Lesko (R)
