• Michael@slrpnk.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    edit-2
    19 hours ago

    The one that they keep spending billions of dollars every year to influence, including spreading the myth that your vote doesn’t matter, to discourage voter participation.

    If billions are being used to influence elections, and that isn’t all grassroots - there isn’t democracy.

    The form of capitalism we enjoy currently and democracy are fundamentally opposed.

    • yucandu@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      16 hours ago

      If billions are being used to influence elections, and that isn’t all grassroots - there isn’t democracy.

      I’m not an absolutist. It is democracy, just not as democratic as it should be.

      Take Russia, for example. They overcame the DNC’s billions with a few hundred thousand on internet bots to trick America into electing a fascist. The internet was a wide open propaganda hole that everyone overlooked, and you didn’t even need to be a billionaire to reach people on it.

      Why aren’t you trying as hard as they are? Are you too comfortable in American decadency?

      • Michael@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        16 hours ago

        Source your claims. Right-wing think tanks, right-wing media and influencers, right-wing organizations, the DNC, Hillary’s campaign, and even liberal media created Trump and allowed him to rise to power.

        https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

        Trump was nobody before the media put him on blast. If there were so many “Russian bots” that enabled his rise to power, prove it - it should be easy for you.

            • yucandu@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              9 hours ago

              I’m sorry are there some email leaks I’m unaware of that reveal that Russia actually wasn’t involved in helping Trump get elected at all or what are you trying to argue here?

              • Michael@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                9 hours ago

                July 22: WikiLeaks publishes 20,000 emails from seven key DNC officials. The emails show them disparaging Bernie Sanders and favoring Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential primaries.

                Did Russia make them do that too?

                I’m arguing that I trust Julian over Stone and anybody else who claims otherwise. You are free to disagree.

                • yucandu@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  8 hours ago

                  You keep changing the subject. I’m talking about Russia influencing the US election to lean towards fascism. What does that have to do with DNC officials being biased against Bernie?

                  • Michael@slrpnk.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    8 hours ago

                    It was a major relevation from the leaks, which you are free to attribute to Russia if you believe Roger Stone and a source (BuzzFeed) that provides no evidence, but claims that Wikileaks “apparently” contacted Guccifer 2.0.

          • Michael@slrpnk.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            9 hours ago

            The source is a verified, leaked email from Clinton’s campaign and an internal DNC memo, if you cared to read. Who cares about Salon. The Wikileaks releases are the only meat of election interference, which according to Julian, didn’t come from Russia.

            Everybody has seen those pages, and reporting on the subject - but the impact was minimal during the 2016 elections and onwards, I’d argue.

            Russian operatives maintaining Facebook/Twitter accounts to organize small protests is truly insignificant and Russian-linked actors buying ads (that ultimately didn’t reach many) to manipulate the election is a failure of the companies involved for accepting the money and running the ads.

            • yucandu@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              9 hours ago

              The Wikileaks releases are the only meat of election interference, which according to Julian, didn’t come from Russia.

              What are you talking about? Julian was on Russia’s side.

              Everybody has seen those pages, and reporting on the subject - but the impact was minimal during the 2016 elections and onwards, I’d argue.

              On what basis would you argue that? The DNI disagrees:

              https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

              Russian operatives maintaining Facebook/Twitter accounts to organize small protests is truly insignificant and Russian-linked actors buying ads (that ultimately didn’t reach many) to manipulate the election is a failure of the companies involved. If Facebook/Twitter algorithms widely promoted these accounts and ads, it’s another failure.

              Yes, many failures. Are you at least admitting it happened? That Russia used these failures to manipulate American elections?

              • Michael@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                9 hours ago

                Julian was not on anybody’s side in particular, there is no evidence that Julian ever favored Putin or the government there. Go and actually listen to past recordings of the guy to get a handle on his beliefs and principles. What did Russia ever do for him?

                I am admitting that some stuff happened, but that nothing truly significant occurred. Hillary won the popular vote by a wide margin. The only thing that occurred was Red Scare 2.0 with ample hysteria - tech company incompetence aside. What ensued was everybody accusing everybody of being a Russian actor, with no proof.

                The push for Trump was multi-pronged, see my initial response for the meat of what created Trump.

                • yucandu@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  9 hours ago

                  Julian was not on anybody’s side in particular, there is no evidence that Julian favored Putin or the government there.

                  They consistently concealed evidence against the GOP and Russia, they outright denied claims made against Russia on their official accounts, they repeated Russian propaganda… come on man. It was obvious.

                  What did Russia ever do for him?

                  Be enemies of his enemies.

                  Red Scare 2.0

                  I’m sorry, are you suggesting Russia is somehow communist? They’re fascist, and they’re spreading fascism throughout the world on the internet, and they need to be stopped.

                  What ensued was everybody accusing everybody of being a Russian actor, with no proof.

                  What are you talking about? Countless members of Trump’s staff were arrested and sent to jail for being Russian spies. The NRA had a Russian spy funneling money. Right wing radio and youtube hosts across America were caught taking Russian money.

                  Why are you denying all of this?

                  • Michael@slrpnk.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    8 hours ago

                    They consistently concealed evidence against the GOP and Russia, they outright denied claims made against Russia on their official accounts, they repeated Russian propaganda… come on man. It was obvious.

                    Citation needed, citation needed, citation needed. Convince me.

                    Be enemies of his enemies.

                    Why did Assange see Clinton as an enemy?

                    I’m sorry, are you suggesting Russia is somehow communist? They’re fascist, and they’re spreading fascism throughout the world on the internet, and they need to be stopped. […] Right wing radio and youtube hosts across America were caught taking Russian money.

                    I’m suggesting that what ensued was hysteria. With or without Russia’s financial support, right-wing influencers and spaces have continued to prop up Trump.

                    What are you talking about? Countless members of Trump’s staff were arrested and sent to jail for being Russian spies. The NRA had a Russian spy funneling money.

                    I am talking about online discourse, not the failure of the state to protect itself from compromised individuals in high positions.