Nearly 50 House Democrats snubbed President Biden by voting for an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) Thursday that would have sought to block his move to provide cluster mu…
I don’t really understand why the US is even considering giving Ukraine cluster bombs. They are banned in a lot of countries for a reason and Russia was rightly criticized for using them.
Think of the poor cluster bomb manufacturers. How will they maximize shareholder value if nobody uses their widely banned weapons that mostly kill civilians?
This is somewhere between disingenuous and flat-out wrong.
Textron is a USA firm that produces Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW). The SFW is a cluster munition that is prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions. The USA’s Air Force has been the primary buyer of these until about 2016. Although it seems direct sales of cluster munitions halted around 2016 when the moratorium on cluster munitions was put in to place, this firm is still responsible for maintenance (which they are paid for) of existing munitions. (You’ll note as well that “stockpiling and/or retention of cluster munitions” is also against the Convention on Cluster Munitions, not just the manufacture and use of them).
Orbital ATK (operating as Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems since its acquisition by defense contractor Northrop Grumman in 2018), a USA defense contractor, previously produced key components of the Textron weapons mentioned above. Although they no longer produce these parts for these purposes directly, they still have ongoing tangential contracts.
Moreover, these cluster munitions that are going to be sent are filled with M42/M46 grenades, which from what I can tell are manufactured by USA-based defense firms. The shells, which include the M1122, are coming from recycled munitions, so they aren’t being manufactured new; but: they were produced by USA-based defense firms originally, and their consumption motivates replacement which also happens by USA-based defense firms.
Also, the notorious defense firms Lockheed Martin and Alliant Techsystems are helping develop the next generation of cluster munitions; so, increased use of the existing generation will almost certainly cause increased spending on future generations of the same type of weapon.
The US, Russia, and Ukraine have not signed any bans on cluster munitions. Russia, is already using cluster munitions AND mines IN Ukraine.
If you’re worried about civilian casualties, you SHOULD be worried about the MILLIONS of mines and cluster munitions Russia is already using IN Ukraine. Ukraine is more than well within their right, to use cluster munitions.
Additionally, Ukraine has NOT used their stockpile of cluster munitions, out of respect for this western ignorance that could be used by Russia against them. Like they’re currently trying to do.
The enimies use of banned weapons is not justification to use those same weapons. Can you outline why the only way to win is for Ukraine to use cluster bombs?
Because that’s the only thing we can get right now. We don’t have enough artillery shells, we don’t have enough weapons, we don’t have enough modern tanks/transport vehicles/planes. Every bit helps. We won’t be able to win this war with sticks and stones.
No it’s russia desperatly trying to harm Ukraine ability to defend itself. By using ignorance to limit access to themselves.
You’d have a point about what aboutism. If we were talking about russias use elsewhere or in the past.
But we are not. You are talking about a nation turning to the same weapons an invader is using. And saying stop. While allowing the invader to carry on with no threat of return attacks.
In international law any non proportional (military usage vs civilian casualties) use of force is prohibited. Russia used cluster ammunition in dense civilian areas, which is non proportional and thus a war crime. Its this specific useage that is a war crime not cluster ammunition in general.
Additionally, Ukraine has NOT used their stockpile of cluster munitions, out of respect for this western ignorance that could be used by Russia against them.
Do you mean they haven’t used all of their stockpile? If that’s the case, why are they asking for more?
We know they’ve used some, so combine the fact that they’ve used some, with the fact that they’re asking for more, and how can you conclude anything other than that they’ve used (most of if not all of) their stockpile?
From what I have heard both Ukraine and Russia has old cluster munitions with a high dud rate (~ 25%). The ones from US is around 2%. So if US cluster munitions help stop Russia using theirs the long term damage will still be lower. (numbers are not 100% accurate, I might be misremembering)
It’s not the only instance of Ukraine using them. I didn’t attempt to do a full inventory of their use. My point was they are using them when you claimed they aren’t.
If you can find accurate claims of how much stock they have remaining, then sure, I very well could be wrong, but again it’s curious: if they have a sizeable stockpile, why ask for more, and why the whole tone of “it’ll change the trajectory of the war” and “it’s necessary for Ukraine’s defense” surrounding their delivery?
On July 7th, Biden said the US was running low on ammunition. Since they don’t really care about civilian casualties, tapping into the cluster bomb stockpile was a no-brainer.
This is a war relating to munitions. And they’re running out of that ammunition, and we’re low on it. And so, what I finally did, I took the recommendation of the Defense Department to – not permanently – but to allow for this transition period while we get more 155 weapons, these shells, for the Ukrainians.
I don’t really understand why the US is even considering giving Ukraine cluster bombs. They are banned in a lot of countries for a reason and Russia was rightly criticized for using them.
Think of the poor cluster bomb manufacturers. How will they maximize shareholder value if nobody uses their widely banned weapons that mostly kill civilians?
Oh really, which manufacturer do you think is benefitting? Nobody makes cluster bombs in the US by the way.
Also, these cluster bombs mostly kill civilians? Would love to see proof of that.
Who pays you to post disinformation, the CCP or Kremlin?
This is somewhere between disingenuous and flat-out wrong.
Textron is a USA firm that produces Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW). The SFW is a cluster munition that is prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions. The USA’s Air Force has been the primary buyer of these until about 2016. Although it seems direct sales of cluster munitions halted around 2016 when the moratorium on cluster munitions was put in to place, this firm is still responsible for maintenance (which they are paid for) of existing munitions. (You’ll note as well that “stockpiling and/or retention of cluster munitions” is also against the Convention on Cluster Munitions, not just the manufacture and use of them).
Orbital ATK (operating as Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems since its acquisition by defense contractor Northrop Grumman in 2018), a USA defense contractor, previously produced key components of the Textron weapons mentioned above. Although they no longer produce these parts for these purposes directly, they still have ongoing tangential contracts.
Moreover, these cluster munitions that are going to be sent are filled with M42/M46 grenades, which from what I can tell are manufactured by USA-based defense firms. The shells, which include the M1122, are coming from recycled munitions, so they aren’t being manufactured new; but: they were produced by USA-based defense firms originally, and their consumption motivates replacement which also happens by USA-based defense firms.
Also, the notorious defense firms Lockheed Martin and Alliant Techsystems are helping develop the next generation of cluster munitions; so, increased use of the existing generation will almost certainly cause increased spending on future generations of the same type of weapon.
Holy shit please use this new service called google. you can look things up and learn about history there.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/11/1186949348/us-cluster-munitions-civilian-casualties-laos
wellThatEscalatedQuicklyMeme.jpg
Proving once again that the best way to learn something is post inaccurate information about it.
The US, Russia, and Ukraine have not signed any bans on cluster munitions. Russia, is already using cluster munitions AND mines IN Ukraine.
If you’re worried about civilian casualties, you SHOULD be worried about the MILLIONS of mines and cluster munitions Russia is already using IN Ukraine. Ukraine is more than well within their right, to use cluster munitions.
Additionally, Ukraine has NOT used their stockpile of cluster munitions, out of respect for this western ignorance that could be used by Russia against them. Like they’re currently trying to do.
That isnt for cluster munitions good. Its extreme whataboutism.
Absolutely gross comment promoting more harm.
Lol sure, self defense is harm, ignorance is patriotism. Very good fellow comrade 🫡
The enimies use of banned weapons is not justification to use those same weapons. Can you outline why the only way to win is for Ukraine to use cluster bombs?
Because that’s the only thing we can get right now. We don’t have enough artillery shells, we don’t have enough weapons, we don’t have enough modern tanks/transport vehicles/planes. Every bit helps. We won’t be able to win this war with sticks and stones.
We won’t be able to win this war
with sticks and stones.Indeed you won’t.
No it’s russia desperatly trying to harm Ukraine ability to defend itself. By using ignorance to limit access to themselves.
You’d have a point about what aboutism. If we were talking about russias use elsewhere or in the past.
But we are not. You are talking about a nation turning to the same weapons an invader is using. And saying stop. While allowing the invader to carry on with no threat of return attacks.
Russia is using you to harm others.
Whatabatism is just when the baddies do it.
I dont know about that. But I definatly question anyone who is not an actual victim of Russian cluster bombs. Telling victims they cannot fire back.
Or even build up a stock to remind Russian citizens they may want to stop their ownb government using them.
Thank you, more people need to call out these useful idiots.
And the United States called it a war crime when Russia started doing so. Pure hypocrisy.
In international law any non proportional (military usage vs civilian casualties) use of force is prohibited. Russia used cluster ammunition in dense civilian areas, which is non proportional and thus a war crime. Its this specific useage that is a war crime not cluster ammunition in general.
Do you mean they haven’t used all of their stockpile? If that’s the case, why are they asking for more?
We know they’ve used some, so combine the fact that they’ve used some, with the fact that they’re asking for more, and how can you conclude anything other than that they’ve used (most of if not all of) their stockpile?
From what I have heard both Ukraine and Russia has old cluster munitions with a high dud rate (~ 25%). The ones from US is around 2%. So if US cluster munitions help stop Russia using theirs the long term damage will still be lower. (numbers are not 100% accurate, I might be misremembering)
The US claims the dud rate is around 2%
Do you believe them?
From your sources it seems like they only used in this village, they only had enough to stockpile to attack one village?
It’s not the only instance of Ukraine using them. I didn’t attempt to do a full inventory of their use. My point was they are using them when you claimed they aren’t.
If you can find accurate claims of how much stock they have remaining, then sure, I very well could be wrong, but again it’s curious: if they have a sizeable stockpile, why ask for more, and why the whole tone of “it’ll change the trajectory of the war” and “it’s necessary for Ukraine’s defense” surrounding their delivery?
Would you support sending tactical nuclear weapons to Ukraine?
They never should’ve given up their stockpile for the false promise of independence.
That I agree with at the same time that I recognize it was a difficult decision.
On July 7th, Biden said the US was running low on ammunition. Since they don’t really care about civilian casualties, tapping into the cluster bomb stockpile was a no-brainer.
Pretty sad.