Illegal Starlink terminals from the American company SpaceX are contributing to Russia’s advance on the battlefield in Ukraine, particularly during the seizure of Vuhledar, Donetsk Oblast.
I’m guessing Musk could easily have Starlink cut them off if he wanted to. It’s not exactly hard for them to geographically locate one of their base stations.
It is pretty much what was answered to you, when it’s on the frontline it is very hard to know if it’s Ukrainian or Russian usage, even in Russia now that the Ukrainians did an incursion. Ukrainian themselves are worried to be cutoff by geo fencing.
About the billing account, there is a well organized black market that will use European identities and bank accounts before selling the service to Russians.
there is a well organized black market that will use European identities and bank accounts before selling the service to Russians.
I don’t think people would particularly mind if their Portuguese account didn’t work, specifically, on the Ukrainian front line. Unless they’re Russian soldiers in which case boo-hoo. The only accounts who should work anywhere close to the Ukrainian-Russian border should be Ukrainian army ones.
Also, like… who fucking cares? Take them down anyway. Let them lose their internet, and then find out exactly why. They should be informed about the services they’re paying for.
I feel like they’ve got to have something like MAC address filtering that they could easily employ in combination with geofencing. Specifically, have the Ukrainians give the MACs of transceivers they’re using in/near contested areas, and only let those have connectivity. To not have that would be kinda insane.
Also, Musk just doesn’t want to, because he thinks it’s better if the Russians win.
Really a bit shocked the DoD isn’t stepping in over this matter and how he’s handling it.
While Russian companies and individuals are not authorized to sell Starlink, a gray market has emerged, fueled by the high demand from military forces and private buyers.
The Post reviewed four of the many Russian sites offering direct sales for the “special military operation,” the Kremlin’s euphemism for the war. Most terminals are sold through Telegram and start their journey in the Moscow area, before being funneled to the front.
One site offers a terminal and connection fees starting at just above $1,000. Customer service is free, and each client receives recommendations “to minimize risks of blocking,” the page notes, with glowing video testimonials from soldiers.
“We have been using Starlink for about a month. No complaints, the speed is good,” one review said, showing a terminal covered in camouflage. “Technical support works great.”
“The internet is flying, the men are happy,” another said. “Gentlemen, I recommend!”
To activate a device, users need a foreign phone number, email address and bank account to pay the monthly subscription fee, prompting suppliers to seek out people willing to lend their identities. Users in “client support” Telegram chats say it is easy to buy and register Starlink kits abroad. Most are obtained in Europe and transported through the United Arab Emirates. One page warns not to activate the terminal in Russia.
One supplier advised that connections for devices bought in the European Union could be blocked after 90 days of usage, suggesting one solution is to register using Ukrainian details.
Hard to shut down
Starlink can both disable individual terminals based on their ID numbers and block areas from receiving a signal, a practice called “geofencing,” the Federal Communications Commission told a U.N. regulator this year.
One person familiar with Starlink said that the company is technically capable of identifying the location of active terminals based on their pings up to satellites, but that it can be challenging to discern the user in the “forward edge of the battle area,” where Ukrainian and Russian troops are operating.
Stacie Pettyjohn, defense program director for the Center for a New American Security, said the U.S. effort to curb Russia’s use “doesn’t seem like it’s been hugely effective,” partly because of the shifting front lines.
“Ukrainian forces are in Russia now. Where exactly are the front lines?” she said. “If there’s a line drawn as to where it works and where it doesn’t, you’re basically fixing the front lines where they are and preventing the Ukrainians from going on the offensive.”
Ukrainian troops, for their part, said they also had concerns over denying access in geographic regions because it may shut their own terminals down. As it is, the troops entering Russia as part of August’s incursion suddenly found their terminals not working because of the geographic restrictions.
Significantly, they soon found workarounds to get the Starlinks online again — probably the same methods Russians have deployed. Interrupting the software update process and tweaking GPS settings can get it working in Russia, said a Ukrainian drone pilot operating there.
There are other viable methods to control illegal terminals, said Todd Harrison, a senior fellow and space security expert at the American Enterprise Institute. One possibility, he said, is for Kyiv and Washington to collect terminal IDs and provide them to SpaceX, with direction to deny access to anything else.
There are other viable methods to control illegal terminals, said Todd Harrison, a senior fellow and space security expert at the American Enterprise Institute. One possibility, he said, is for Kyiv and Washington to collect terminal IDs and provide them to SpaceX, with direction to deny access to anything else.
The problem is that both sides are using it and both sides are in the same general area. So cutting off a device on Russian soil could very well be a special forces group planning sabotage.
There are definitely solutions but they all involve giving a Russian agent direct knowledge of troop movements.
There are definitely solutions but they all involve giving a Russian agent direct knowledge of troop movements.
Starlink terminals are activated using a unique identifier. It’s how billing works.
SpaceX knows which terminals have been provided to Ukraine. We know they can geofence service. Geofencing the Ukrainian theater to terminals that were provided to Ukraine shouldn’t be a massive technical leap and doesn’t provide any information they don’t already have.
SpaceX knows which terminals have been provided to Ukraine.
They know which ones they’ve provided to Ukraine. Hardware like that has been and is still being donated through third parties daily.
Now, they could have Ukraine tell them which terminals are in use, including anything they’ve gotten from elsewhere, including stolen back from Russia, and use that to manage, but that would require the CEO of the company to actually want to help honestly.
Hardware like that has been and is still being donated through third parties daily.
It’s more in Ukraine’s interest to limit the use of Starlink to only those terminals that have been vetted through official channels than to allow blanket use and try to filter out things through other means due to… the exact kinds of situations this article is talking about.
but that would require the CEO of the company to actually want to help honestly.
Sure. And part of the reason we know Starlink is entirely capable of geofencing is because Elon’s done it explicitly to stop Ukraine from being able to operate near Crimea. That whole kerfuffle lead to military usage being pushed over to Starshield and a contract with the US government that gives them explicit say on when and where Starlink works in Ukraine.
Elon is dumber than a bag of hammers but it’d be next level stupid even for him to willingly break a DOD contract, especially when people were already floating the idea of invoking the Defense Production Act last time around.
Precisely. It’s not rocket science. And SpaceX is literally doing rocket science. This is a fully solvable problem. Eel on musk just doesn’t want to solve it.
For very obvious reasons, Ukraine may not want musk to have every single units position. Let alone groups that supplemented their own resources with Amazon.
Could starlink figure this out? Yes. But it would make everyone involved uncomfortable to know the theoretical has become documented and easily searchable.
Location info shouldn’t be needed, though. (Even though they should technically be able retrieve location data from any terminal on their own already. It’s all their hardware and network.)
They should be able to geoblock traffic from Ukraine/Russia while having a kind of Allow filter for the terminals they know they provided for use by Ukraine.
It’s the same concept as blocking a country’s domains but allowing certain domains of that country through for emails. They just need to setup a “spam” filter.
Cool, except that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying the Ukraine military tells Starlink where the Russians are and they block them. Then if they move, the Ukraine military tells them that. I’m guessing Putin already knows where his own troops are and I’m guessing Starlink has a phone number, as does the Ukrainian military.
I’m guessing Musk could easily have Starlink cut them off if he wanted to. It’s not exactly hard for them to geographically locate one of their base stations.
See the explanation in the source article https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/12/starlink-russia-ukraine-elon-musk/
It is pretty much what was answered to you, when it’s on the frontline it is very hard to know if it’s Ukrainian or Russian usage, even in Russia now that the Ukrainians did an incursion. Ukrainian themselves are worried to be cutoff by geo fencing.
About the billing account, there is a well organized black market that will use European identities and bank accounts before selling the service to Russians.
I don’t think people would particularly mind if their Portuguese account didn’t work, specifically, on the Ukrainian front line. Unless they’re Russian soldiers in which case boo-hoo. The only accounts who should work anywhere close to the Ukrainian-Russian border should be Ukrainian army ones.
Also, like… who fucking cares? Take them down anyway. Let them lose their internet, and then find out exactly why. They should be informed about the services they’re paying for.
I feel like they’ve got to have something like MAC address filtering that they could easily employ in combination with geofencing. Specifically, have the Ukrainians give the MACs of transceivers they’re using in/near contested areas, and only let those have connectivity. To not have that would be kinda insane.
Also, Musk just doesn’t want to, because he thinks it’s better if the Russians win.
Really a bit shocked the DoD isn’t stepping in over this matter and how he’s handling it.
It’s paywalled. And I’m pretty sure they could work with the Ukrainian military so they can say “turn it off over in this place.”
Don’t they control this via subscription? Geolocation + not Ukrainian military = disable
Cool, how about that happens?
Elon says no? Oh well.
How is it hard to send an RSA key to the Ukrainians and geofence every starlink in the region that doesn’t provide it.
You could collect Serial Numbers from any node that moves from inside of russian space to outside of russian space and hard block them.
This would even keep units that move from Ukraine to Russia working in the case of Ukrainian military using it.
The problem is that both sides are using it and both sides are in the same general area. So cutting off a device on Russian soil could very well be a special forces group planning sabotage.
There are definitely solutions but they all involve giving a Russian agent direct knowledge of troop movements.
Starlink terminals are activated using a unique identifier. It’s how billing works.
SpaceX knows which terminals have been provided to Ukraine. We know they can geofence service. Geofencing the Ukrainian theater to terminals that were provided to Ukraine shouldn’t be a massive technical leap and doesn’t provide any information they don’t already have.
They know which ones they’ve provided to Ukraine. Hardware like that has been and is still being donated through third parties daily.
Now, they could have Ukraine tell them which terminals are in use, including anything they’ve gotten from elsewhere, including stolen back from Russia, and use that to manage, but that would require the CEO of the company to actually want to help honestly.
It’s more in Ukraine’s interest to limit the use of Starlink to only those terminals that have been vetted through official channels than to allow blanket use and try to filter out things through other means due to… the exact kinds of situations this article is talking about.
Sure. And part of the reason we know Starlink is entirely capable of geofencing is because Elon’s done it explicitly to stop Ukraine from being able to operate near Crimea. That whole kerfuffle lead to military usage being pushed over to Starshield and a contract with the US government that gives them explicit say on when and where Starlink works in Ukraine.
Elon is dumber than a bag of hammers but it’d be next level stupid even for him to willingly break a DOD contract, especially when people were already floating the idea of invoking the Defense Production Act last time around.
Precisely. It’s not rocket science. And SpaceX is literally doing rocket science. This is a fully solvable problem. Eel on musk just doesn’t want to solve it.
For very obvious reasons, Ukraine may not want musk to have every single units position. Let alone groups that supplemented their own resources with Amazon.
Could starlink figure this out? Yes. But it would make everyone involved uncomfortable to know the theoretical has become documented and easily searchable.
I bet money Russia starts getting absurdly good. And they’ll have really good info. And it will be because of starlink.
Location info shouldn’t be needed, though. (Even though they should technically be able retrieve location data from any terminal on their own already. It’s all their hardware and network.) They should be able to geoblock traffic from Ukraine/Russia while having a kind of Allow filter for the terminals they know they provided for use by Ukraine.
It’s the same concept as blocking a country’s domains but allowing certain domains of that country through for emails. They just need to setup a “spam” filter.
Again, that assumes that Ukraine want a company run by a Russian asset to know every single device.
But also? There is a lot of value in civilians being able to reach the outside world as well. Especially under an occupation.
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You know what’s weird? There’s an Xfinity wi-fi access point near me, but unless I have the right credentials, I can’t log in.
Yet I’m in the same area as others who can log in. What gives???
Almost like, I dunno, there are other ways to block people besides being completely location-based. Especially when we are talking about military-use.
I would think you could wait until Russia took over a town and then cut off Starlink to that town until Ukraine makes advances.
Same problem
“Hey musk? Could you restore service to this town at 2 am on Wednesday? No reason but also please don’t tell putin or trump.”
Cool, except that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying the Ukraine military tells Starlink where the Russians are and they block them. Then if they move, the Ukraine military tells them that. I’m guessing Putin already knows where his own troops are and I’m guessing Starlink has a phone number, as does the Ukrainian military.
Why would Russia move? I’ll give you a hint: it involves shooting at them.
So unless Ukraine wants to not be able to communicate with recon units before every attack…
You mean like with a phone? You’re right, not possible.