- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
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In other words, Vaxry is so unwilling to compromise or learn from others that he would rather isolate his project from the broader FOSS community. That says a lot about him and the people who support him, especially since this conflict with freedesktop.org started over Vaxry condoning hateful trolling of trans people within the Hyprland community.
This is a problem for me as a Hyprland user because if I share some rice I made or make suggestions for other users, I’m leading people into a community that may be actively hateful towards them. It utterly extinguishes any enthusiasm I have for the project. I like the software but I’d rather be part of a project and a community that I can feel good and excited about. Maybe time to find a new tiling Wayland compositor.
if I share some rice I made
FYI: rice is derived from a racist pejorative term. A lot of people in the desktop theming community have stopped using it.
I feel that like idiot, “ricing” is far enough removed from its roots that its fine. Thats just my opinion though
As someone who found out it’s origin by casually using it in reference to my asian buddy’s PC, I’m here to let you know it’s not.
its* origin
And at least in the Unix context it’s a positive term.
My partner is Korean, and I asked her if she thought this was racist. She said “it is (technically), but who is getting offended by that?”
I never used the term in the first place, but if I did, I wouldn’t stop saying it because I know about its past.
I’m fully convinced that anyone who is sincerely offended by that term is looking for something to be offended by.
I don’t waste my time thinking about how “smooth brain” is offensive to people who literally have a smooth brain.
I don’t waste my time dictating to the English; their colloquial term for a “cigarette” is inappropriate nowadays.
And I don’t waste my time replying to comments on Lemmy regarding semantics.
Oh, wait…
It’s so ironic how many downvotes this is getting in the context of this thread.
Mostly because the “reddit mentality” has already established in this community, where the downvote exists solely as a self-validation/“dopamine fix” feature rather than flagging a post as bad and irrelevant.
You’re right that felt good
Fair enough
Languages evolve over time. The term “to serve” is derived from the Latin word for “slave”. That does not mean it’s somehow offensive to use the term to describe the job of soldiers.
The modern day “riced” comes from “R.I.C.E” which stands for “race inspired car enhancement”. If you rice a car, it means you put components that look like race car components but are actually just cosmetic. Fake vents, huge spoilers on family cars, exhausts that are optically bigger, etc. The orange Japanese car in the linked article is an example of that. 70s Japan had renown ricing culture so I guess that’s where the R.I.C.E and the racist “rice burner” split.
Nowadays people who use the term “riced” don’t even know that at some point in time it had something to do with Asian cars or bikes. It’s even common to jokingly associate it with the food with the same name to spite other car nerds because you can “um actually” bait someone to correct you that it has nothing to do with food. Which is obviously not true according to the article but if 99 % of people don’t know the racist origin, it’s not an issue at all to use the word.
I can’t find any source to indicate Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancement was ever a term that existed as anything other than the Japanese version of an N-word-pass.
That is to say: the acronym only exists as a means to explain why I should be allowed to continue calling your car a RICEr.
The problem here is that someone fabricated an explanation for why they should be allowed to continue to say RICE, in response to a fallacious argument for why they shouldn’t be allowed to.
The term is so far removed from any malicious origin, that some people wouldn’t even know they should feel offended, unless someone told them they should be.
I cannot give you any source, unless you want to waste hours of your time watching some car videos. The difference between an n-word pass and rice-pass is what you mean with that. Some secret way of saying the n-word does not change its racist connotation but a ricer by default has nothing to do with race. If you want to be racist, you would have to explicitly specify that you are talking about the owner’s race or the car’s origin or whatever.
The term is so far removed from any malicious origin, that some people wouldn’t even know they should feel offended, unless someone told them they should be.
That’s not normal human behavior. Try to imagine it. 3 people are going down the street. One of them points out that a car on the street is “riced”. Second one tells the third who is of Japanese origin, that he should get offended because of the word’s origin. It would be weird to get offended because someone told you to.
“It would be weird to get offended because someone told you to”
Right, but it happens. The post which triggered this reply chain is essentially a litmas test for what I’m describing.
The acronym of RICE was made after the racist connotations were already established. It’s an attempt to rewrite history so people could continue saying it.
It is documented to have come from racial origins in the 1960’s. Yet, I can’t find anything about the acronym from more than twenty years ago.
Well thats not true
Wrong. This was originally technically motivated as hyprland had been limited by wlroots in the past and often had different update cycles from sway causing packaging issues.
Vaxry never condoned hateful trolling of trans people. In fact, he publicly acknowledged, and apologized for the lack of moderation that lead to the incident, said he would do better, DID better, and THEN after everything had blown over FDO tried to ego butt into his server even more.
I’ll quote Vaxry from his blog:
“Obviously, the fact that I am banned from contributing to Freedesktop - and by extension wlroots, is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales, because I am no longer allowed to participate in discussion or contribute code to wlroots.”
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-wlrootsRewrite
“I definitely am not a fan of how seemingly weak people online, especially teenagers, have become. Words are just words. Someone calling another person a “retard” shouldn’t really be a big deal.”
"I said:
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
Which I definitely stand by."
is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales
means that it is not the sole motivating factor.
which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
Literally means that if they go around spewing crap, they get dealt with. This is not condoning hateful trolling at all. He is on the free speech side of things, but that doesn’t mean he condones it at all. If you start posting bad crap, you get dealt with. Minor slights, are as the name implies, minor. Those are allowed but within strict limitations, if you start going full blown idiot, you get dealt with.
He’s completely right about everything there.
Unless he is selectively banning trans people, not making a tech discord server about those discussions is perfectly fine.
Thanks for sharing this. I will install hyperland.
Fuck Hyprland, its developers, and its asshole community. Context: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
The bread and butter for anyone wanting a TLDR:
The FDO team is right that Hyprland’s community reflects poorly on the Linux desktop community as a whole. Vaxry [the Hyprland Dev] has created a foothold for hate, transphobia, homophobia, bullying, and harassment in the Linux desktop community. We are right to take action to correct this problem.
And on that note, I condemn in the harshest terms the response from communities like /r/linux on the subject. The vile harassment and hate directed at the FDO officer in question is obscene and completely unjustifiable. I don’t care what window manager or desktop environment you use – this kind of behavior is completely uncalled for. I expect better.
Oh wow. That community is just hateful
And now in the r/linux thread about these news people are defending Vaxry, misrepresenting what the ban was about, and hating FDO.
Indicatively, this blatantly wrong comment chain is upvoted:
Is this the project where some red Hat dev started dropping legal threats from their corporate account over offline activities by third parties in unrelated communities years past?
Sort of. You got some details wrong but essentially, yes.
But this is downvoted and has replies telling them they’re wrong:
Congratulations to the hyprland project, but I definitely will not be using or contributing to the project as long as it’s an exclusionary and intolerant space.
I whole-heartedly agree with this one and I am genuinely not surprised about the behaviour of Vaxry.
To give some context around this, ThatOneCalculator (aka Kainoa, the person behind Firefish) and I maintained the AUR package for hyprland-git back in 2022. When I initially made the AUR package file, it wasn’t great (and there were a lot of points to improve these packages) but it worked mostly. Of course there were edge cases where building broke, especially this was my first bigger AUR package to maintain. With it being a -git package in the AUR, breakage is to be expected.
Fast forward about a month, a month and a half. Hyprland rolled out some big changes which caused some build errors. But because my personal life got in the way, Kainoa got sick (IIRC) and I had troubles getting the build scripts working again, so it took a few days to get this resolved.
Vaxry came complaining to comment section of the AUR package “when are you gonna get of your lazy ass and fix this shit” (or something similar to that meaning, I can’t find the original comment anymore). After that, I promptly disowned the package and let Vaxry handle it himself.
Because fuck that shit, as package maintainer, I refused to be treated like this. If you think it takes too long, sure, fine, ask if I need help, offer support, anything. But just don’t be an asshole towards people, that offer your software to a wider audience.
Removed by mod
Yeah I think so… I couldn’t find myself as well because I wanted to get the wording correct for my post.
Removed by mod
To be completely fair, without the “receipts” (ie, screenshots or something else point towards proof) my comments shouldn’t be considered anything more than hearsay.
Personally, this experience is something that’s sticking out like a sore thumb. Most people I interact with online, even people I haven’t interacted with before, I start out with the assumption that they come from a place with good intentions. And then there is a person, that immediately goes against that, especially on a platform where I didn’t expect it.
Edit: grammar
Vaxry (head honcho of hyprland) responds here to Drew’s referenced shoutout. Sharing for completeness sake. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
And his response to the FreeDesktop stuff. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat
It seems like the guy is being genuine here. Or was that pure PR?
He is some sort of a sociopath. I remember having the same feelings reading his Blogposts. But after rethinking and checking the facts it came to me how awful his own reaction was.
If you use an infrastructure as the project did, the host is allowed to define rules. In his reaction everything was framed like she as a woman would just fire against his project because of she likes to have power. The mailing list told a totally different story. After I realised his framing was again hateful and misleading, I stepped away from the project and till now all news about that.
The development of a dedicated backend is most probably because of technical reasons since wlroots caused some problems, though.
Damn, had no idea about this.
Well I was going to try Hyprland this weekend, but I think instead I will very much not do that.
I hope someone forks it from a good commit just before they replaced wlroots. I don’t know the specifics of compositor code at all, but I bet It’s going to cost them quite a bit of velocity to maintain their replacement.
I’d say, read Hyprland’s responses linked elsewhere in this thread before making any hasty decisions.
It seems (but I’m not sure, to be clear), that it was a situation that got solved, and people are still hung up on it.
It’s like that “but you fuck one sheep” joke.
what joke?
You’ll find many variations of it if you search for that phrase on the internet.
But at this point, eh, it’s not as fitting as I thought it would be.
Then you might as well not use linux cause if you don’t know, you will be in a shock
I’d recommend river to anyone looking for an alternative wayland dynamic tiling wm.
I’m SO excited for river 0.4.0 as it will bring a massive architectural change which will basically allow people to build their own Window Manager on top of River. Currently, River is a Wayland Compositor with an extensible Layout Generator Process support via a custom protocol. This change will essentially make River into a hyper-extensible Window manager building system which will make it immensely powerful.
While I use river as daily driver and am very happy with it, I feel people who like Hyprland will find river to be rather limited and barren in terms of looks and availability of plugins.
I’d be happy to find an alternative to Hyprland, but it was the first tiling manager that really clicked for me and (before the community issues came to light) I spent quite some time getting it set to the way I like it. I’d love for a competent fork or similar but it is well beyond my skill level to do that.
Any recommendations for a Hyprland refugee? Thinking of trying out niri…
After this news I switched to using KDE with Karousel, an animation plugin, and a rounded corners plugin (kwin scripts).
I also use a command runner plasmoid to somewhat replicate waybar from shell scripts.
I’ve been eyeing https://codeberg.org/river/river
river is great. It’s far more stable than any other wayland compositor I’ve used.
That looks awesome! Having used fvwm, I’m a fan of the scrollable desktop
I’ve been using swayfx, a fork of Sway with a little more eye candy.
I can only recommend niri!
I like niri, but I’ll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I’ll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.
Right now I’m using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.
I’m a fan of qtile. Used it when it was x11 only and use it on Wayland now.
None of the suggestions are even close to how good hyprland is. Like not even a little close.
river
Hyprland has special workspaces, plugins which became part of my worksapace. I don’t think river can replace it. i3 has features like these but i couldn’t find anything similar in river.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Because Vaxry didn’t like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn’t mind genocide:
I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.
20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz
To his point: if not “discuss”, what is the correct approach against fascism? war and murder? dismiss it, try to “cancel it” without giving any arguments so it can continue to fester on its own and keep growing in opposition?
To me, fascism is a stupid position that doesn’t make much sense, to the point that it falls on itself the moment you “discuss” it.
I would have expected that it would be the fascists the ones unable/unwilling to discuss their position, since it’s the least rational one. So it’s certainly very jarring whenever I hear people jumping to defend against fascism while at the same time stopping in their tracks when it comes to discussing it. Even if those unable to reason might not be convinced by our arguments, anyone with reason would. Rejecting discussion does a disservice, because it does put off those willing to listen and strengthens those who didn’t really want an argument anyway.
Like flat-earthers, they should be challenged with reason, with discussion. Not dismissed as if it were true that there’s a huge conspiracy against them. Whether they listen or not to that reason, dehumanizing them and rejecting civil and rational discourse would play in favor of their movement.
Stating “genocide is bad” should NOT be a statement of faith. Faith is the shakiest of the grounds, if we are unable to articulate the specific reasons that make genocide be bad, then we are condemned to see it repeat itself. So, I’d argue it’s for the sake of the victims in Auschwitz that antifascism should not be turned into a religion, but into a solid and rational position that’s not distorted nor used willy-nilly.
Aw, man. I think Vaxry’s got entrapped here.
He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.
(Please note: I don’t side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)
I think he’s the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.
I can totally see him say “If a group of people’s solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that’s all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it’s safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated.”
That’s an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that’s what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won’t say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.
Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn’t say or mean.
My two cents.
That discussion didn’t come out of the blue, though. It was in the aftermath of behavior on his Discord where his position was “I didn’t say the things and I can’t moderate”. Also, as a person of Polish descent who follows Polish politics probably a bit closer than the average person, I see a pattern of PiS party ideology / common behavior by PiS supporters of being at the far right and the claiming ignorance when their behavior leads to bad press.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said “we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again”. And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn’t get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely “fixed” is Vaxry’s own misleading interpretation.
I don’t know, man. I read Vaxry’s response and I think that he has a point. There was an incident, and it was dealt with.
Then someone from redhat (because they e-mailed him with from RedHat address) told him “hey we saw improvements on you moderating your community. Great! But if you break our CoC again, we’ll ban you!” To which he replied “Uh, we don’t have a CoC, we don’t belong to your organization, what’s is this about?” And the person replied “This is not a RedHat position. And again, we’ll ban you!”
He explained this in a blogpost and posted the full e-mail conversation.
He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.
I’ve also read Vaxry’s response and it’s complete nonsense. It’s even apparent in your condensed version.
Uh, we don’t have a CoC
Exactly. This is more than “an incident” as you put it. It’s a long-lasting pattern of Vaxry refusing to commit to any standards of behavior. He explicitly calls “upholding any value” nothing but an inconvenience. His only reaction to his community ridiculing the concept of a CoC is to say “nice one”.
What’s funny is that the person who opened the issue said “Instead of attacking the post, could you provide some evidence against it? (e.g. say “Trans rights are human rights”)” and it was completely ignored. See, the CoC is not about the text itself. It’s about taking an open stance against bigotry. Vaxry can cry all day about how this one incident is misrepresented and how moderation has become more strict now, but nowhere in this discussion or the FDO emails or his own blog about the issue have I seen him take an actual moral stance on the issue.
we don’t belong to your organization
What does this have to do with anything? FDO, a space that aims to be LGBTQ+ friendly, banned a bigoted person from participating, as they should. It’s such a stupid childish argument to say “but I didn’t out myself as a bigot in a commit message I submitted to you, checkmate!”. No-one cares. You can’t leave your “fuck trans people, lol” sign at the door and walk in, mate. You’re still a toxic asshole and you’re still a threat to the LBGTQ+ people we want to participate in our community.
He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.
This is just so funny to hear from Vaxry himself. After people have repeatedly tried to explain to him that not enforcing any code of conduct on a toxic community is going to make it an unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people, Vaxry is shocked to find that LGBTQ+ people are afraid of being discriminated against!
Oh, but no, you see it’s because of the “misrepresentation”! Vaxry’s had made it so clear through his words and actions that trans rights are human rights and that bigotry is unacceptable, so it can’t possibly be on him. Even as he’s posting pictures this conversation where he’s accused of being a transphobe, and a trans person is expecting to get rejected, does he point out how he’s not a transphobe and how he respects all human rights? Nope, he only says that he only cares about the code.
But that’s just me picking apart his comments in a few specific discussions. What if he has in fact taken a moral stance, but just not in these particular discussions where’s he’s felt attacked and pressured into making a statement?
He did post this in one of his blog posts:
With that, I believe that every human’s opinion is valuable and important, and most crucially, equal. There is no point in having some people’s opinions be more important than others. That is the essence of discrimination.
Hey, that’s not bad. There’s mention of equality here and he seems against discrimination! Now let’s read the rest of this Inclusive community activists are harming FOSS blog post and see what it’s really about! Oh no, the above statement was only to set the stage for accusing SJWs of not understanding that not everyone agrees with them and how they shouldn’t “cancel” us for “saying bad words”. So he does think to talk about equality and discrimination, just not in any of the above discussions. But he’ll do it here to defense people acting like assholes on the internet!
And then he says this:
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
So there you have it. Vaxry will literally accept Hilter into his community, just casually interacting with Jewish people (presumably he doesn’t ban them from participating). It’s all fine, just as long as the gassing happens outside his own platform. Gosh, I wonder why people are feeling unwelcome in his community. Surely it is the misrepresentation of his views.
Here’s an archive link for the above article just in case: https://web.archive.org/web/20240511145845/https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
I think you’re attributing malice to something else. Bear with me while I point out these two things:
First, The tomatoes quote is a consequence of something he mentioned later:
I firmly believe that FOSS is literally for everyone.
And second, he goes on to write this:
It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other. For whatever reasons they may, we still should not ostracize them as long as they can interact with the FOSS community in a respectful manner, without arguing about those issues in places not meant for such discussions.
Here’s what I think: The dude is dogmatically dense. Not a literal nazi or transphobe. His response about moderation is part of that. “Ugh, I just want to code, not to babysit. If no one is spewing hate in my turf, they are welcome.” And even though I don’t agree with his stance, I still think he has a point: extremes are bad. And if the far-right is bad (“you’re either with us or against us; death to you!”), the far-left is bad too (“you’re either with us or against us; cancelled!”)
I’ve been there. Even after explaining that I was a transgender rights ally and supporter, and asked a question about sports - a question, as in I was trying to get myself informed, this one mod lashed out at me as if I was the devil, simply because my views didn’t perfectly align with hers before getting answers. It really caught me off guard. And she wouldn’t budge. It’s either her view or “pure unadulterated transphobia,” which I found ridiculous. That’s extreme.
But I’m capable of trying to reach to a middleground, whereas Vaxry stays firm - and that’s fine. Don’t like it? Don’t participate in his community! But don’t demonize him for some imaginary intentions you’re placing on him.
There are only so many ways “I don’t care if Hitler is active in my community as long as he doesn’t talk about the gassing in my discord” can be interpreted and “I just want to code” is not one of them. For starters, the practical issues of moderation and whether he wants to do it are never relevant to his argument throughout the blog post. He’s saying that “we should not care about people’s political views on a community unrelated to politics, as long as they do not use it to spread their agenda”. The words “we”, “should”, and “care” are pretty clear. This is a moral statement.
There are many more quotes that make it clear he is not talking about moderating his own community. His point about Hitler is clearly used to demonstrate his thoughts on how communities in general should be run, and why FOSS communities are getting it wrong.
Inclusive communities, in the eyes of such advocates, are often the opposite of inclusive. They will try and find things that you do outside of your proffessional persona, or often infer, guess, meddle with, or lie about what you say and stand for. Then, once they have the “ammo”, they will ostracize you. Ban, kick, call for removal, censorship.
Unlike those people, I stand by my stance that even if you are something that the country I live in disagrees with, you still are free to use, contribute to, and be a part of the greater FOSS community.
It’s also sad to see that the inclusive communities for which such people “fight for”, are accepting this type of, ultimately hateful and bigoted, behavior…
Bonus points for explicitly listing LGBT issues as a topic one might disagree with.
It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other
It’s all unambiguous. Vaxry is at no point talking about the practicalities of keeping Hitler out of his community. He is explaining why he thinks Hitler should be welcome into his community and the FOSS community in general, just as long as he doesn’t use these communities to further his goal of gassing people. If there was ever any confusion over whether Vaxry doesn’t care about the toxicity or just can’t deal with it, this blog post definitely clears it up. He doesn’t care. He’s welcoming evil and harmful people in his community and in all communities and he takes a stance against the people who have an issue with this.
Your interpretation doesn’t work unless you ignore all the words he uses, the logic of his arguments, and even the fucking title. Not to mention all the other times he’s talked about these issues. In so many blog posts about how his community is unfairly represented and how his ban was unwarranted, Vaxry has not once just simply stated in any terms that he is not okay with evil and harmful people in his community, or that he even acknowledges trans rights. The only thing I’ve seen him say on the incident of harassing a trans person by editing their profile to change their pronouns is that it was “unprofessional”. No mention of ethics or possible harm done.
And if the far-right is bad (“you’re either with us or against us; death to you!”), the far-left is bad too (“you’re either with us or against us; cancelled!”)
Ah yes, seeking people to harm because of their race and innate characteristics and banning people from your platform because of their morals and behavior. Equally bad things. I see the rights and wrongs of both sides now.
There are only so many ways “I don’t care if Hitler is active in my community as long as he doesn’t talk about the gassing in my discord” can be interpreted
That’s exactly what he is saying. I don’t agree with it, but if you read his stuff, you can tell that it’s pedantry rather than hate what makes him say that.
and “I just want to code” is not one of them.
That’s your opinion, and we’re going in circles.
For starters, the practical issues of moderation and whether he wants to do it are never relevant to his argument throughout the blog post.
But they are, though.
He’s saying that “we should not care about people’s political views on a community unrelated to politics, as long as they do not use it to spread their agenda”. The words “we”, “should”, and “care” are pretty clear. This is a moral statement.
Moral or pragmatic, sure, whatever you say. But the base is not standing on hate. Just… Apathetic practicality? Laziness?
There are many more quotes that make it clear he is not talking about moderating his own community. His point about Hitler is clearly used to demonstrate his thoughts on how communities in general should be run, and why FOSS communities are getting it wrong.
We don’t disagree here. But so what? You could also say “fascist shouldn’t exist,” and someone somewhere will say that you’re condoning genocide.
Bonus points for explicitly listing LGBT issues as a topic one might disagree with.
You’re not saying anything we haven’t discussed already - we’ve the term transphobia several times already.
It’s all unambiguous. Vaxry is at no point talking about the practicalities of keeping Hitler out of his community. He is explaining why he thinks Hitler should be welcome into his community and the FOSS community in general, just as long as he doesn’t use these communities to further his goal of gassing people.
Exactly. We’re going in circles here. You’re attributing malice to this sentence. You’re saying that he is secretly saying “hurr hurr I am a nazi and this is how I get away with it.” He isn’t. I don’t like it, I fucking hate nazis. But I don’t think he is one. He’s probably autistic before being a nazi.
If there was ever any confusion over whether Vaxry doesn’t care about the toxicity or just can’t deal with it, this blog post definitely clears it up. He doesn’t care. He’s welcoming evil and harmful people in his community and in all communities and he takes a stance against the people who have an issue with this.
Correct. More of the same.
Your interpretation doesn’t work unless you ignore all the words he uses, the logic of his arguments, and even the fucking title.
It does work.
The only thing I’ve seen him say on the incident of harassing a trans person by editing their profile to change their pronouns is that it was “unprofessional”.
Because it was unprofessional from his point of view. He’s not secretly and deliberately condoning transphobia.
Ah yes, seeking people to harm because of their race and innate characteristics and banning people from your platform because of their morals and behavior. Equally bad things. I see the rights and wrongs of both sides now.
Again, we don’t disagree. I should have that phrase stored somewhere, ready to be pasted when discussing with you.
Look, show me a picture of him doing the nazi salute or protesting a pride parade, and we’ll talk.
Otherwise, I stand by what I said. The dude is a dense moron. Not evil.
I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I’ve seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn’t RTFM.
Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.
All of these people are just reaching lol. I also don’t understand how any of this would do benefit. Most of the people here cheering have not contributed 1℅ of what varxy did.
That drewvault guy lectures all day instead of maintaining his own projects. Why are we acting as if we are in abundance of open source devs/maintainers.
Damn. I only discovered this project a few weeks ago and just started building a config.
Time to
yay -Rcs hyprland.Damn why does all the software I want to use end up being developed by bigoted assholes. First nix now this.
My opinion: let’s separate the software and the people making it. If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
EDIT: I know that FOSS heavily relies on community but also that’s the point. I don’t see how toxic comminity can progress further while more open minded and kind fork will be a better choice of the same software base.
What if you need to file a bug? What if you have a question on the config that’s not easily answered by the docs? If you never, ever find bugs and never, ever have questions, then sure, separate the two. There are genuinely people like that, but they’re not common. If you’re one of them, then I’m genuinely glad for you.
My opinion is this: You use software. You don’t use people, but you sure as hell rely on them.
Yeah that’s a better opinion than mine.
Which is why you should only care about the personal opinion of those people when it actually relates to that reliability.
I don’t care whether Linus Torvalds likes disrespecting whichever company or people he might want to give the middle finger to, or throw rants in the mailing list or mastodon to attack any particular individual, so long as he continues doing a good job maintaining the kernel and accepting contributions from those same people when they provide quality code, regardless of whatever feelings he might have about whatever opinions they might hold.
You rely on the performance of the software, the clarity of the docs, the efficiency of their bug tracking… but the opinions of the people running those things don’t matter so long as they keep being reliable.
Just do them how you would do with any other project. You really acting like it’s some alt right group. It’s just a edgy chronically online 20 yr old dude lol. The community is pretty normal. Only weird things you would see is edgy messages in announcements channel.
Since this change is entirely a result of the bad behavior of the maintainer and would not have happened otherwise, this a perfect example of why we fundamentally cannot separate the work from the people who make it.
Even if you do not agree with the social backlash this person is getting, that backlash has real effects on the work.
I, for one, no longer trust that hyprland will remain a well-maintained piece of software given that the maintainer would rather increase their maintenance burden and diverge from using common tools instead of cooperating with the community.
Yeah the “organisation” stuff behind… To be honest anything can show negative or positive effects on the end product. I see it in my job, college and even the Unity or CrowdStrike can make such examples.
Please note that many users of FOSS are also developers or contributors. Who wants to report a bug or send a patch if the community is worse?
“Let’s remove the social element of our social movement”
Great so what’s left at that point, the free value FOSS provides to corporations?
Having a tool that can be used greatly without restrictions without any additional bullshit. For me that’s FOSS but I know that when comes to maturity and development community is the main component of great end product.
If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
I didn’t write about its user base, I wrote about its community – the cesspool that engages among each other. That said, the moment someone opens a bug report, there’s a real chance that person gets harassed.
That’s absolutely sucks I agree…
The thing about Foss is that it’s typically community oriented. You are not only able to contribute and participate, but you’re invited to do so.
And if you’re an asshole and your community is toxic then who cares if your code is good? There are other projects I’d rather participate in. Cuz you’re not that good.
I have contributed to other projects without really needing to get involved in their community in any personal/parasocial level, though.
I just make a pull request and when the code was good it was accepted, when not it got rejected. Sometimes I’ve had to make changes before it getting merged, but I had no need to engage in discussions on discord or anything like that. I’ve been in some mailing lists to keep track on some projects, but never really engaged deeply, specially if it goes off-topic.
If I find that a good code contribution is rejected for whatever toxic reason, then the consequence of that is the code would stop being as good as it could have (because of the contributions being rejected/slowed down), so it’s then that forking might be in order. Of course the code matters.
That’s correct, but sometimes in that sense you don’t engage with anyone and just read the docs. Also there are some cases when main contributors were toxic or unhelpful in a long run that community decided to create independent fork that’s more FOSS driven, not by elitism driven.
Would be great, but some people are really strange. Especially bad if you have to let go of the work of some people, because you cant do it on your own.
Yeah true
People should learn to separate technically impressive projects from the people running them. I’m not going to contribute or financially support the project, but I’m not going to stop using Hyprland because of its creator’s views and conduct. With that said, this stuff certainly doesn’t spark enthusiasm…
I wrote community, not user base.
I wasn’t criticising your comment, sorry if that’s what it looked like. It was just what came to mind reading a bunch of comments saying they’re abandoning Hyprland because of the controversies. Probably should have just replied to the post itself instead of your comment…
I wasn’t criticising your comment, sorry if that’s what it looked like.
No, I was merely clarifying.
Sure, no worries :3
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Being a good dev doesn’t mean being a good person
Being a good dev doesn’t justify being a bad person either.
This wm is dead to me.
Imagine letting yourself get emotional about ghe “asshole community” of a “tiling compositor”.
Anything can get to you if that can.
Does this have something to do with the author being banned from freedesktop?
Yes
Partially, it also had strong technical motivations.
People keep saying this happened only because vaxry got banned from the FDO, completely forgetting the fact that hyprland has used their own modified fork of wlroots for ages now. They’ve wanted to get away from wlroots even before this whole fiasco, it really just tipped the needle for them to finally pull the trigger.
Mind you also, the ban in no way prevents hyprland from using wlroots still. The only thing the ban did was prevent vaxry from contributing to wlroots upstream, which is damn unfortunate if you ask me.
You believe his “fuck you guys, wlroots sucks anyway” blog post? In that case I have a wonderful bridge for sale that you might be interested in.
I don’t need a blog post to know this, considering I’ve been closely following hyprland since vaxry’s first posts about it on reddit over 2 years ago.
Imagine having to rebase your entire project because you’re a piece of shit.
This is the first I’ve heard of it. What’s the deal?
Vaxry, the main dev of Hyprland, got banned from all aspects of freedesktop.org for multiple CoC violations.
Yikes. Thanks for the summary. I’ll look into the details when I’m at my desktop.
Wow! Just like how I moved away from Hyprland. :)
Your loss lol
Ngl this will blow over in like 2 weeks, FOSS drama has the lifespan of a moth
But why?
Because Vaxry (the lead dev) got banned from contributing to wlroots or any other FDO projects.
As for why he was banned, this is the only thing I’ve read about the whole thing: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
Basically, he violated the FDO Code of Conduct when being told that a particular thing he said/enabled in a Discord community would not be acceptable if it was seen in spaces covered by said CoC.
This appears to be his response.
violated their code of conduct in places where the code of conduct explicitly does not apply is extremely important here. He never once violated code of conduct anywhere that it did apply, and in public spaces was quite respectful, You could for sure find faults with him, but you could find way more faults with most other developers who still actively contribute to projects hosted on FDO.
Wlroots has a slow development time for features hyprland wants, as well as hyprland having a different release cycle then sway, often causing packaging nightmares.
Well done to Vaxry and co for achieving such a feat! I still think it’s completely pointless but at least it will mean that it can now be more easily packaged for other distros, as it avoids the issue with using tagged wlroots.
Watching the discussion here I finally get how it feels like to be a centrist. And it feels dirty.
Anyway, good for them, or whatever. Hyprland was a’ight when I tested it, even if it ain’t my thing. Still hoping for a Wayland Compositor that gives an XFCE-type experience (that is to say, UX without Gnome’s ‘opinionated’ weirdness, and without all the fancy effects that Plasma has. Relatively lighter, also looks a bit retro)
A Wayland Compositor with an XFCE-type experience
XFCE is working on Wayland support!
You may want to look into gnome classic, it comes default with gnome.
It’s not fancy or even popular, but it was made specifically for people like you.
You can theme plasma and turn the effects off. Why isn’t that exactly what you want?
For everyone shitting about Vaxry, I recommend reading both sides of the equation, not only FDO/Drew’s.
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Just looked into this drama because I had no idea what the fuck was going on, and MAJOR YIKES
Nice job on not adding nothing relevant other than “(Folks that doesn’t like the same stuff as I do) are (buzzwords).” – you are not better than em.
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Vaxry is not English-speaking, I think i read somewhere that they’re from Poland
Well he speaks english so in that sense he’s english speaking
Reading his side of it only made me dislike him him more…
The only defense of Vaxry ever presented was that he was a bigot on his own discord and not freedesktop’s. He’s a shit bag and he can take his i3 for fascists elsewhere.
The mail threads and chat screenshots show his side.
Exactly, vaxry apologized for the lack of moderation and took changes that prevented the incident. to which FDO said, “he we are onto something, we can push our divisive politics here” then got angry when he rightfully told them to fuck off
I use Mutter
What would be the advantages of using this over, say i3? (Does it summarize to X vs Wayland)
Yes. Also plus eye candy with hyprland. Sway is the i3 experience on Wayland. The official roadmap for i3 is to fall into obscurity as Xorg goes away. They explicitly call out that other things exist for Wayland and adjusting i3 would distract resources from those projects
Mostly, yes, X vs Wayland. Hyprland also has a lot more eye candy in the way of window animations for snapping, dragging, etc. I find the Hyprland config file simpler too, but that’s just me.
Neat
i was here for systemd round 2
